Originally Posted by SteveZ

AS A FATHER OF DAUGHTERS, what I have learned is the following:

2. The public school sex education programs provide so much "birth preventive systems" information that kids think they really can have their fun at no cost or risk, and all kids think they are bulletproof to start with. Oh yeah, if the preventive systems fail, there's always abortion. THAT is the message they really learn at school.

So, don't worry about the Palin family and their trials as being the topical scapegoat if a daughter gets pregnant. Just look at what's going on at the schools and hang-outs within a twenty-mile radius of wherever you live. That's where kids get their information and role models.

This broad brushstroke is so unfair. What public school district are you specifically talking about? I've seen a lot of curriculums and haven't found your assessment to be true at all. Having taught for 33 years, and my husband teaching health for 33 years, this was not our experience. In the district where we taught (a public school system) parents came for meetings to view, discuss, and sign a permission slip for their child to be in class or to opt out and not have any part of the program. The curriculum was written by parents, teachers working together.
The messages children learn in school are far less important than the messages they receive from their #1 supporter - YOU, the parent. The situation with Palin's daughter is a "teachable moment." Any parent who doesn't want a teen pregnancy for their child should take this as an opportunity to get a conversation going or to continue one.
As for teens who do get pregnant, please don't dump that burden on the schools. The last time I looked this up, research said the average father spends less than 10 minutes per day in meaningful conversation with their children. This doesn't include: clean your room, listen to your mother, do what I say. Hang-outs? If your child is hanging out where you don't think they're safe and the environment is healthy, how is that the school's fault?

Originally Posted by Peachie

Sorry, Chels, I missed your earlier post:

"MNBA is one the the 2 biggest companies in Delaware. Joe Biden's son Hunter turned down jobs on Wall Street for much more money, to be in his home state. And Biden's contributions from any lobbyists are less than 2%."

I know you and I watched this same program and so I'm sure you heard Joe Biden when pressured by the moderator as to how he could back such strict bankruptcy guidelines for people going under do to huge medical expenses and he lamely came back with, "that's why we need a health care program in this country". What in the world does that mean to the families staggered by a major illness or accident currently? Tough luck? But the Democrats are in the majority in the Congress and Senate and I saw no health insurance programs enacted during their tenure. INMO, I feel it was a conflict of interest for Biden to vote on the bankruptcy law, he had dogs in that fight. And where is all that change when they could be producing it right now without Barrack Obama? Those are some of the issues that concern me.

I'm sure all of this will be brought up in the debates, which is why I'm so looking forward to them. I just know McCain cast a series of Senate votes in 2005 siding with the banking industry and lobbyists, while opposing measures from congress and senate that would have helped families struggling to pay medical bills, seniors in bankruptcy fighting to keep their homes, and victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Senator Obama said he also would help service members and military families struggling financially after multiple moves, lengthy deployments and, in some cases, predatory lenders, saying, "If you're protecting America, America should be protecting you from unfair bankruptcy laws."

Originally Posted by cmj

This broad brushstroke is so unfair. What public school district are you specifically talking about? I've seen a lot of curriculums and haven't found your assessment to be true at all. Having taught for 33 years, and my husband teaching health for 33 years, this was not our experience. In the district where we taught (a public school system) parents came for meetings to view, discuss, and sign a permission slip for their child to be in class or to opt out and not have any part of the program. The curriculum was written by parents, teachers working together.
The messages children learn in school are far less important than the messages they receive from their #1 supporter - YOU, the parent. The situation with Palin's daughter is a "teachable moment." Any parent who doesn't want a teen pregnancy for their child should take this as an opportunity to get a conversation going or to continue one.
As for teens who do get pregnant, please don't dump that burden on the schools. The last time I looked this up, research said the average father spends less than 10 minutes per day in meaningful conversation with their children. This doesn't include: clean your room, listen to your mother, do what I say. Hang-outs? If your child is hanging out where you don't think they're safe and the environment is healthy, how is that the school's fault?

Where I have lived in Eastern Massachusetts especially this was the prevalence. Central FL counties are not much better.

It always goes back to - why is the public school system trying to teach sex education and a host of other items that fall to parents? Where is the demonstrated need, and what objective criteria is being used tot evaluate the effectiveness of any instruction on these topics?

The public school system in the US has become a greater tragedy in the US than all of the wars, the economy and the health care system. Since 1960 the SAT scores keep going down and the curriculum keeps broadening, and the kids now leave school: 1) not really knowing enough basic math to balance a checkbook properly; 2) with grammar so poor that the text-message shorthand is considered acceptable writing skills; and 3) reading at no higher than the 9th grade level. The drop-out rate still is abominable and a high school diploma today is not regarded as being worth much of anything due to the high number of graduates who leave the hallowed halls still ignorant in the "3 'Rs."

There was a time when the public school system delivered an education, and that was prior to the '60s. Teachers then were role models of the highest order. They came to work dressed as professionals, conducted themselves accordingly, demanded classroom courtesy and there was mutual respect. They really were the first "business" role models outside the home for kids, especially as to what would be expected post-graduation regarding job knowledge, skills and conduct. Nowadays, A visit to the average public school finds the teachers dressed like every day is "Casual Friday" and the classroom attitude ranges from fear-of-the-student to so-what-you're-here. The list of "electives in 7-12 grades is unbelievable, and why we have all of these electives is a mystery, as there are no objective criteria upon which to base their need. What happened? ? ?

Say what you want about "no child left behind," but it spoke volumes about the overall disappointment of with public schools in general from its customers - the taxpayers in general who deal with youth who can't read, can't do basic math, have no business deportment skills - but do have a diploma which says they passed "life sciences" and the like.

I've taught as well - at the undergraduate and graduate level. I've been an employer of the product of the public school system. In both situations I have been highly disappointed with the overall preparedness of these young people in their command of the English language and their ability to apply basic math skills to logic. Yet, they claim to be knowledgeable about sexuality, the sex act, pregnancy (and it's prevention and abortion), and apparently have just enough information to get it wrong - as demonstrated by the ever-increasing teen-birth and teen-abortion rate.

We hue and cry that jobs are being shipped overseas, but the sad truth is that many of the information technology jobs can't be filled by today's US-educated entry-level labor force because their math and language (English, specifically) skills are second-rate (or worse) in comparison to the younger folk in other countries.

No - I don't want the parental burden "dumped on the schools." Public school teachers are not social scientists, and nor should they try to take that role. The public schools are to teach those basic subjects necessary to academically prepare students for the academic (not social) rigors of collegiate life and/or prepare students to enter the American work force with reasonable competency in the national language and the sciences at the level necessary for entry-level employment in the region. When schools can at least do that job with demonstrated competency, then expansion of curricula may have merit.

Parental burden should not be dumped on the schools. But it should be shored up by the schools. They should work hand in hand. In a perfect world that is.

Originally Posted by chelsea24

Parental burden should not be dumped on the schools. But it should be shored up by the schools. They should work hand in hand. In a perfect world that is.

Agreed with caveat.

Public schools are not "special places." Public school teachers hold not "special status." Both exist to provide a taxpayer-paid service. There is no "shared parenting" happening, and schools and teachers should be held to objective standards of performance - just like any other government service or employee- and that evaluation criteria and measurement occur to value the performance.

Originally Posted by Cassie325

You know...I will state once again that this is MY opinion.....that is what this forum is for....and I am glad it is here. It is good to look at other postings to hear what other people think....however in regards to my concerns....I will stand by them and I have a right to do so.

I feel horrible for Palin's family...the media...the 17 year old pregnant as she is running for VP....but that does not mean that I am worried about the stigma this will leave for young teens.

Keep in mind I am not really talking about the teenagers that have families that will support like Palin. I am sure she will have help from the nanny etc....

I do have a concern as a mom....as a voter....I don't think it is right! I am all for womens rights to have good jobs and equal pay...however if a mom is never home for her teenage daughters....and they have 4 other kids and are the Governor.....well.....what do we think will happen if she becomes VP!!

I don't think she should kick her daughter out into the street, I don't think she should make her have an abortion, I don't think she should make them get married....

As for the teenage boy who is the father....he should have responsibilities to the child.....but honestly how many 17 year old boys do you know now a days that would get married....just because she is pregnant....and stay with the marriage....

Cassie I am quoting you but I am saying this to all people who are flogging these sociocultural factors which condition behavioral patterns.

With all due respect instead of focusing on...

a pregnant teenager... (as a possible role model for today's young women, when Hollywood has such stellar examples for them to follow.) ...who happens to be the daughter of a now prominent V.P. Candidate...

...and the candidate's parenting responsibilities....because the candidate is a woman... (I wonder if anyone questioned Biden's ability to hold down a Senate job, a long commute and the raising of his boys..hmmm bet he wasn't home all that much. I know they say he had dinner with his family every night...wonder what time that was? Nobody has a family dinner every night)

Wouldn't it be refreshing to focus on the fact that a woman is after 20 years or so, finally again running for Vice President of this country. (It's only 86 years after we got the vote)

Whether she wins or not, whether you like her or not, isn't Palin's running, an example that we can hold up to our daughters and granddaughters to say, see that glass ceiling is finally once again starting to crack. You really can be what you want to be.

I don't know about you, but I for one am sick, sick, sick, of the sexism.

If you aren't old enough to remember what it was like before the liberation of women in the 60's and the 70's, or if you didn't experience it because you are a man, you have no right to criticize Palin on these topics.

If the family fell apart when women went to work maybe it is because the men didn't step up to the plate.

Another thought why is it that it is still okay to put the responsibility for having, supporting & raising that baby only on the girl's shoulders? It takes two to make this situation happen. The boy gave up his right to choose or not choose parenthood when he left his Trojans at home. And honestly they might actually be in love. It does happen. My mother was 18 when she got married and then pregnant with me. My parents were married for 41years when my dad died.

Argue your politics, have fun, but quit setting women back 40 years.
The allure of Father Knows Best was only cool on TV.

I agree with you Susan on having positive role models for our daughters. But let's make sure they're the right ones. I wouldn't want Sarah Palin as my daughter's role model.

Chels, it isn't whether or not you like her...I have little regard for Hilary...but I am glad that she had the opportunity to run her campaign without being shut out from the beginning just because she was a woman.

My point is people should be judged equally on their merits, not by their race, sex, age, etc. and the fact that that is finally happening in this election is wonderful.

Standards applied to one should be applied to all or none.

If I have to choose between Sarah Palin and Hillary, as a role model, I'll take Sarah. hands down.

Originally Posted by chelsea24

I agree with you Susan on having positive role models for our daughters. But let's make sure they're the right ones. I wouldn't want Sarah Palin as my daughter's role model.

Politicians, pro athletes, entertainers and actors/actresses in general as life-style role models for kids is a danger anyway. Their job is not to be a morality model, but to perform specific duties and do specific tasks. Being a role model doesn't fit. Examples:

Pres. Bill Clinton - his personal behavior on-the-job was sickening, but many folks thought he was okay as a President. In fact, there were many who thought his impeachment was really about the Lewinsky matter, and believed that "wasn't fair."
A signficant number of the NBA and NFL superstars - Either have criminal records for everything from dog-fighting to drug running, and that doesn't include the number fathering children out of wedlock and dumping responsibilities later. Yet, they keep having their pictures on cereal boxes and get paid to endorse products marketed at the young.
U.S. Congresspersons - The list of these elected officials with ethics violations is scary. The behavior of many when away from the "home folk" and enjoying what DC has to offer parallels the ditties written about mariners-of-old on shore leave.
Sen. Ted Kennedy - I could go on for days on this dude, but he keeps getting re-elected.
Vice. Pres. Spiro Agnew - The only V.P. ever to resign because of criminal charges. That speaks volumes.
"____________" - Fill in the blank. This list could go on ad infinitum.

The bottom line is that if you want a President or Vice President or any other elected official to be the poster boy/girl for your concept of morality and example to your kids of "being perfect," no one will ever qualify.

So, if Gov. Palin (and her family) is being held to standards which were not applied to the aforementioned elected officials and those who entertain us for money, then there is indeed a double-standard being applied to her.

Whether the double-standard is because she is conservative (that's politics and expected) or is a woman (that's sexist and shameful), it doesn't say much for the so-called concept of "progressive liberal thought."

I think it is a waste of time and space to keep talking politics. This is not a political forum. Politics like religion should be off limits, no one is going to change any one's mind. However if the idea is to hear yourself, keep going.

with you Sally Jo and welcome to TOTV.

I also with you Steve. Role models for children should come from within their everday experience, not strangers who have very good PR people.

Originally Posted by efrahin

I think it is a waste of time and space to keep talking politics. This is not a political forum. Politics like religion should be off limits, no one is going to change any one's mind. However if the idea is to hear yourself, keep going.

I must disagree...I started not caring about politics at all. I haven't even voted in many years. While typically my views are VERY liberal...I have learned a lot from the people here on TOTV. I particularly like to read what Steve has to say. It is always intelligent and well thought out. While I am very emotional about my thoughts and what I have to say....there are always people giving me more to think about...more to learn...

So...while I have not changed my vote thus far...I have learned so much and it really has made me think. So I thank everyone who has posted here....I have learned so much from everyone! Steve, Peachie, Sammhass, Chels, Susan/Tom, bright, ronda, gracie and 07....I am sure there are many more that I have missed!!!

I am voting this year and I am very excited to do so...and honestly after all this...I haven't yet made up my mind!! I am learning and being educated! Isn't that what this is about!!

Good for you Cassie.

;D

thanks!!